Sharing Grief, Sharing Hope — Israelis and Palestinians in Conversation

This episode is a recording of a conversation held today, May 8th, led by Rabbi Lizzi who was joined by two members of the Parents Circle, an organization of Israelis and Palestinians who have lost loved ones to war and are working together toward peace.

Laila Alsheikh lives in Bethlehem in the West Bank. In 2002, her 6 months old son, Qussay, became ill and Israeli soldiers prevented Layla from taking him to the hospital for more than five hours. Qussay soon died from the lack of timely treatment. Laila joined the Parents Circle in 2016. Following her son’s death, she never thought of revenge, but rather has devoted her time and energy to ensuring a better, more peaceful future for her children.

Ofer Lior lives in the Western Galilee, Israel. He has spent his career facilitating and coordinating joint activities between Israelis and Palestinians, most recently coordinating the Center for Learning and Dialogue in the Nes-Ammim community in the North of Israel. Ofer’s brother Oren was killed in 1989 during his time in reserve duty at the Jordanian border. He has been active in the Parents Circle for about 15 years and has participated in many Dialogue Meetings.

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Produced by Mishkan Chicago. Music composed, produced, and performed by Kalman Strauss.

Transcript

Transcript

we are about a week away from two important dates on the calendar. Well, actually multiple important dates on the calendar depending on whose calendar you're looking at. If you're looking at the Israeli calendar, you have Yom has the Koran and Yom HaAtzmaut. That come next week, and you'll have the Coronas the day of remembering fallen soldiers and Yom HaAtzmaut, which is Independence Day, and the founding

Prime Minister of Israel Dahveed Ben Gurion wanted these days to be juxtaposed to one another to flow from the mourning and loss of one day into the joyful celebration of the next day, to really drive home for people, the sacrifices required to create and maintain

sovereignty to maintain a state of Israel.

And that as the as the poem says, I think the the poet, the poet is Nutan alternate who wrote a, a poem about the the state being given on a silver platter. And the silver platter is dead children.

And it's a very, it's a, it's a very stark poem, but it's a way of Israelis, accepting that there will be sacrifice that comes with the creation of the state. But the thing is, this is at exactly the same time on the calendar. As when Palestinians remember the Nakba, the displacement, the loss, the exile of over 700,000 Palestinians from their homes, in the war, that the that resulted in the creation of the State of Israel. And that resulted in the creation of, you know, hundreds of 1000s of Palestinian refugees that did not ultimately get a state at the end of that war. Many of them actually ended up in Gaza. So many of the people in Gaza right now are descendants of people who left their homes in 48.

And so while you don't have Zika, Rowan and Yom HaAtzmaut, Goud are very often they focus on the Israeli experience. You know, it's sort of like on July 4, here in America, unless you're a Native American, you're waving the American flag, you know, but like, also, there's an entirely other story, multiple other stories, whether of African Americans or Native Americans, that is wrapped up inside of that story. And the stories are inextricable, and you actually have to tell all of them in order to understand where we are today, and why things are broken in the way that they are broken, and why there is pain and heartbreak in the way that there is unresolved pain and heartbreak and loss today. And so as we go into this season,

we wanted to bring in and lift up the voices of people who have felt that loss acutely. We, over the past number of years have focused at Mishcon on trying to lift up the voices of people who are peacemakers in the midst of heartbreak and in the midst of pain and loss, deciding, affirming, in, you know, against all odds, and in often cases, you know, in many cases against what their communities might even say they should be doing, deciding to turn toward each other instead of a way.

And so the parents circle families forum is the organization that does exactly this. It's made up of over 700 bereaved families, whose common bond is that they have lost a family member to the conflict. And instead of choosing revenge, they choose the path of reconciliation. And through their educational activities. These bereaved members join together and take 10s of 1000s of Palestinians and Israelis on journeys of reconciliation. And it's not the kind that makes headlines. But it is a more personal and profound shift in perspective, and honestly the only kind of shift in perspective that has any possibility of resulting in lasting,

lasting coexistence.

As a joint Israeli Palestinian organization, the parent circle families forum models constructive dialogue around shared values. Even since October 7.

Its staff members and 1000s of participants are still committed to a way forward that centers around empathy and humanization

the parent circle Family Forum focuses on the shared value and sanctity of human life. And so this conversation brings our attention to the valley

Use the Palestinians and Israelis can agree on even in the darkest of times. So we are very honored to have two dear beautiful souls with us today. I'm going to spotlight them here. Leila al she, and

oh, fairly you're

thank you for being here. Leila lives in Bethlehem in the West Bank. And I and ofera lives in the western Galilee, in Israel. And I think I will like I have your BIOS here. But I actually feel like you sharing your story is is part of what we're here for. So just to let everyone here know what's going to happen for about half an hour, Leila and Ophir. And by the way, Leila and ofera are like they've, they've done this many times. And we're blessed

to be witnesses to their story. They'll share their stories, and dialog with each other as much as you know, they feel moved to and then will be open to do q&a to take questions. I think ideally, you'll send me questions, and then I'll be able to say like, Ellen, why don't you ask your question? Are you are you because sometimes I'll see that there are multiple people who have the same question or whatever. So go ahead and just direct chat me if you want to ask something.

And I guess stay everyone else can stay muted during the talk. And if something comes up if you're, you know, if you if there's something you disagree with whatever, wonderful, take note of it. Drop it to me in a chat. Let's not have the chat be active as they are speaking,

except to send emojis like hearts and other expressions of support. Okay.

I think I'll stop there. Is there anything else we should say by way of housekeeping?

Oh, fair and Leila?

Thank you. That's it, I think. Yeah. All right.

Lately, do you want to begin? Okay, first of all, I already thank you, and it's so great to meet you again. And really, we are so thankful for you to invited us to share with you and to speak about our stories and about our organization and about the general situation now hear

about what happened at that church we, we wish if it was completed, but at the same time we

we are so happy if just one person just listened to us. And we know that that will

shake their hearts and check their emotion. Their will share this with other people.

So my name is Leila chef. I'm from Bethlehem. I am 46 years old, mother, four or five children. And I have two grandchildren. And one of them. We have him today. So I'm really so happy today to have this great news and this darkness. So thank God

I was

I was born and live in Georgia. And because my family they are originally from Bethlehem, but they went to Jordan because my father and my father, he was a teacher. And he went to Jordan to teach the children and the camps in Jordan. And after the other war was started in 1967. And because of that, you know, the Israeli government at that time, they close the border, and my family lost their

citizenship as Palestinian and they become Jordanian. So

I,

I listened to 1000s of stories about Palestine from my father. And I love Palestine from what I heard from my father. So for me, it's become like a dream, to came and to visit the Palestine.

After I finished my study in accounting and business in Georgia, and I met my husband there, he's originally from Bethlehem to. So in 1999, I came back to Bethlehem to get married and start my new life. And I was really so happy to be here because, for me, it's a dream come true. To heard about something, it's sort of a different education to live in.

So I thought that the life will be great and everything will be amazing. First year. It was really amazing. Second year after we have our first daughter, Jessica and the father's started or a second uprising.

And it was so hard for me because that was the first time I live in a situation like that. But I

All, or even during that time the Israeli government make another decision not to give people like me who came from Jordan or our country is a blessing in it. So that meant I can go freely from place to place, but I didn't care too much because I have my husband and my daughter to take care of, and our happiness become much more a second year after we have our second son.

And,

you know, we start to make

plan for their future, and you start to have dreams about that. But that happiness was ended 11th of April 2001, the Israeli soldiers came to our village and death with Chagas. And because of that, he become so sick. And when he when we tried to take him to a hospital inside Bethlehem, because we live in a village outside that Israeli soldiers of the US more than four hours, and they said, it's about the military is when you can enter. So the next chance was to take him to Hebron. And then they stopped us more than four hours. So we will reach the hospital, it was too late to save his life. At the end of the day, my son was I died, he was just six months old at that time.

That was so hard for me.

I was filled with hatred, anger. But at the same time, I didn't think to take advantage because Ranger will never bring my son back. But my other decision was that I don't want to have any kind of relationship with any Israeli person.

And that was really so hard for me, as a new mother or my family away from me, out of a situation.

Everything was so difficult for me.

So

after 16 years,

I met one of my friends that I did install for a long time. And he started to talk about the burn circle. And I stopped him and I said, Are you crazy? You know what happened to me and to my son? And then he said to me, I want to ask you a question why until now you didn't tell your other children about what happened to their brother. So because I didn't want them to be part of this cycle of violence, because maybe if they know they will start to think to take revenge. And I lost one of them, and I'm not ready to lose another one. And he said to me, what maybe this will be good chance for you and not just to protect you, your children, maybe other families. To be honest. In the beginning, I felt that is crazy. He imagined that because of my whole life. I didn't heard about this kind of organization.

Until one day, he invited me to a conference in Bethlehem.

First time, when we said there were just philistinism. I listened to their stories, that was something like normal, most of these stories I know. And I heard about them before. But after five minutes, they Israeli people start to enter that room, I start to feel there's something in my chest. I don't want to be with them in the same room. And I tried to leave then my my friend stopped me. And he said to me, please just sit and listen to them.

Then I said a recurring you know, this is one of the strangest thing that

I tried to do. And I tried to leave then I saw something amazed me when I saw that Israelis and the Palestinians tried to hug each other and it's each other like family members, not even just a friend. And that was the first time I saw something like that. So I said to him, Okay, I want to sit and I want to listen, because I want to know what's the thing that makes them so close to each other like that. So when I heard those really start to talk about how they lost their loved ones, I was really amazed and shocked, because that was the first time I listen to these kind of stories. And for the first time I looked at them as a human like me not as enemy. The first time I felt we share the same pain we share the same tears Even if we had a different circumstances but we're still human. Nothing worse than losing a child or a family member and no one could understand that pain and with someone be the same situation. So from that day, I decided to participate one of the project called url neurotic project

to learn much more about the Israeli NGOs as a Palestinian I just met samplers or soldiers but to make normal people like me, I didn't have chance to do that. So I'm this are this is the main project in our organization, which gives a chance for both sides to set to learn to talk about everything. Like we met for eight times. And we had two professors from both sides. One Israeli one Palestinian who spoke about the history

of the nation.

We even went to visit Yad Vashem and museum in Jerusalem to know much more about the Holocaust. And even we went to that the Palestinian village was existed before 1948. It's not about comparing the pain, it's not about telling who's first was sick and who's right, who's wrong. But it's a chance to understand each other to understand where everyone came from.

So at the first day, they asked us to speak about something happened during the conflict affect our lives. And that was the first time I spoke in front of

people, even between me and my husband after his death, we didn't spoke about him. We didn't spoke about anything about him. And that was so hard for me like after 16 years, it was like to open the window again and bring the memories back, the pain, the anger, I couldn't complete the story. And I started to cry. And then an Israeli woman came and she said in front of me, and she started apologizing. She said to me,

yeah, I did hurt you. But the people who hurt you, for my own people, I'm a mother, too, I could understand your pain. I could understand even though the word that you didn't say, and she came and hugged me, both of us start to cry. She didn't know that day. By her simple words, she changed my whole life. Even she returned me back my belief as a Muslim mother. I believe in Quran I believe in all the scriptures. But there's a script said, can judge all people because of mistaken one person. I know it, I believe in it. But I didn't work with it. Because I felt hatred and anger.

From that day, she, like, pushed me back to my life, to my beliefs to my, to my family, even

from that day, I decided to be a member in the forum start to give lectures in Israel, and in Israel and Palestine, travel around the world to spread the message of peace and reconciliation. And I thought this is or that's all on, everything will be great. And

everything becomes good. It's so easy to convince people about, here's a love and reconciliation are the most important thing. You ask yourself if you really meant that. So life Give me another test. One day in Jerusalem, I've been with Robby Darwin, and other people from other organization, we spoke about our stories. And after I finish, there's an Israeli man who stand up and who look at me and he was crying. And I thought he cried because he just listened to my story. I know him like two years ago, his name's Ken alone, and we like friend. But that was the first time I listened to his story. And when he mentioned that he was Hi, officer in the army, and he served in my area.

And then he mentioned that he stopped by SR car, which have sick children from going to a hospital, then it's become hard for me, then that was the real test.

At first, I didn't know what to say or to do, couldn't breathe.

And then a few minutes later, I started to cry. And then Robbie asked both of us to go outside that room

to talk about what happened. And then he mentioned that he after time, or his son becomes so sick. And when he tried to take him to a hospital, the guard stopped him because you want to ask him a few questions, but he was in a hurry. And then he said, at that moment, I just realized what I did to the Palestinian. He was a high officer. And then he went from the army, he jailed because he refused to serve.

And he established a new organization, which called on pattern for peace with EX Palestinian fighters, to end the incubation and to change this life for both sides. And then I looked to him and I said, this is so hard for me to listen to you. But at the same time, I want to thank you. If I know that part of your story was there and you didn't tell me, I will never forgive you. But because you've been so honest, and you have that courage to speak in front of me, I will forgive you. And then I realized this is the real reconciliation. I meant every word I say I mean, everything I did, and that if we even give me power and courage to continue, even in this there are dark times. Maybe we have many wars before but maybe this

this is one of the worst one

from the seventh of October until today, maybe most of the people understand that

They start to realize what's going on in Gaza. But no one understand what's going on in the West Bank, because from the seventh of October until today, all the people who work inside Israel, they lost their jobs. The economic situation in the West Bank become so bad.

Most of the people

they've been attacked from the settlers, their houses, their cars, industry, they burn their houses or their cars.

We didn't have shelters. Like in my village, there's done rockets fell down in my village. And we didn't know if it's from Hamas, or even from the Iron Dome.

Sorry.

My children,

Nan, and my youngest daughter, she's eight years old until today. She's still Fred, when she heard any noise or anything she, she have many questions about what's going on. We know this is hard. We know this is not normal. But we couldn't stop. Even these doctors, because of those people who lost because of our children, because of the generation will come after that and ask themselves what they did to change this. And we didn't want them to say they just sit outside and they did.

And we believe that God created us to love each other and to live not to kill each other without no mercy. Every soul is so precious. Thank you for listening.

Thank you. Thank you, Leila, for bringing your story and bringing it right up until this moment.

Oh, and there you go.

I just I just want to recognize with everybody who's sitting here, that was a lot to take in. And she took us not just on a story of what happened, but also your own internal process, and how that process of growth and

peacebuilding, how that was tested even inside of you.

Which I think we can all probably relate to in different ways when our values that we think we hold, bump up against a test bump up against an opportunity to either default back into the way that everybody else around us seems to be responding.

Or actually, we are able to do the thing to practice what it is that we've been preaching.

Thank you for sharing all of that with us.

So ofera in turn to you.

If you lay lay, if you want to go off camera, I can I can pull you down off the off the spotlight if you want to me to do that. I have I have just a phone call. So because of that the camera was okay. No worries. All right. Oh, fair. Please.

Thank you. And thank thanks, Leila, for sharing her story.

My name is Phil AppFolio. And I'm 50 years old. I have one son, and I live in the northern part of Israel. Not North enough to be evacuated, but not North enough to hear the booms. Sometimes we are not. Till now we're looking at danger, but still hearing the bombs falling or the anti bombs of Israel, the IDF.

And this is how we live in the last six months more than that.

And

I think

the thing I will start my story with

is that I grew up

I think different than many of my Palestinian colleagues in the in the in the turn circle. I grew up and I didn't know nothing about Palestinians. I didn't I knew them. They exist.

I live in a family that believed in peace. They will kind of people belong to the soft left, you can call it.

But it was just the idea that we live here. And somebody wants to kill us and it wasn't clear so much to me. Why? What was the issue as a young one?

One of the exactly once four months, and I had three older brothers, all of them went to the army. And it was just this was just life that you'd need to go to

The Army as a very young one, I knew I'm about to be a soldier at some point, because this is what we need.

And I didn't know any Palestinian. And it wasn't something about me or about my family. I think nobody that I knew around me had any kind of contact with any Palestinian, any Arab at all, they were just there. And we know we have some kind of conflict with them. And for me, it was like, why why did they want to kill us? What did they really do? Well, we did. What did we do to them? What, what is the story. And, of course, it wasn't my fault. Nobody told me the full story.

And when I was 15, my brother who was the closest to me or when that was 23 years old, was killed while he was reserved the

soldier in the, in the border with Jordan, a very peaceful border, usually, it was before the peace agreement was 1989. And but it wasn't the place was usually things were happened.

And

he was in that time when he, when he got killed when he was 23. I was 15, he was somebody I was looking for, you know, it was that age that you're starting to look somebody else. Instead, your parents and he was kind of a model. For me, I really wanted to have his attention. And to in he was he was important to me in in many ways.

Of course, since I was a very little child, but in that age, there was something

very painful about losing him and losing him as a, somebody that walks with me through this life.

And somebody else something as it was very painful just to, to see my parents is what's happening to them and the effect that was on them.

It was a very heavy experience that, I think in some ways, I think, in some ways, maybe I healed from it in some other ways. And it carried I think, and I kind of learned something from that about the connection between parents and children, even before I was a parent myself.

And I think unlike many of the my colleagues and Palestinians, I never had any kind of thoughts about

about revenge, or about wanting to kill somebody else. It was just something that happening. We all knew that we need to go to the army. And we all knew that at some point, someone might get hurt and might get killed. And it's felt like this is the this is the price we need to to pay in order to leave you.

In some ways, I think I was even proud or I know people in my family for sure. We're proud that they were happy about it. Of course not. But it was something like, you know, we were about among those families that takes such a

heavy price because we are so dedicated to our country to survive here as a Jewish people.

And

some way I longed at some place some point along the way. Maybe it started even before in get killed. I started to ask questions. In that time, the First Intifada, the first uprising of the Palestinian have started. And it was no more than more voices, I think around me in the news and in the media, like asking questions about what exactly is going on? What exactly is the why is that? Why did this conflict keep going on going on for so many years.

And as time goes by it was more and more clear. To me that is some kind of very heavy inequality that I wasn't aware of. between us and the Palestinians, between the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians.

It was a process it wasn't easy, and it wasn't easy not to feel bad about it.

But it was more and more clear that there's some power that it's much more dominant than the other

for many many years and I belong to the

power that is dominant the power that maybe you can call it the oppressor or whatever term you want to use.

It's it's how to feel good. When you when you realize it when you find it out.

And it will still because the place

When my brother was killed, he was a reserve soldier it was in the border with Jordan, it was even harder to, for me to understand what exactly they want those people, but the people that killed oh and more Palestinians he was serving along the border

to Palestinians came from Jordan with weapon may be trying to get one for the settlement, it was deep south in the desert,

probably waiting to get one of the sets to set up the settlement that was there. It wasn't in the West Bank even.

And then she just ran into them completely by accident. And there was some kind of a short shooting from both sides. And one of the bullet just hit him in the in the chest and and killed him.

And

because it was there, because it was not even in the West Bank in Lebanon in place that there was not in any kind of conflict about them. At least as much as I knew. It wasn't clear to be harder for me to understand, like, what's the story? Yeah, we dominate them and everything. But why is there Why him why.

And I grew up with those questions. And we discussed those ideas. And later on I

I finish, I went into the army, I wasn't the combat, I finished the army. And I went to work in some use movement as a leader facilitator. And in this use the movement, it was in the 90s, he used to do a dialogue meeting with Palestinians, from the West Bank, and also from Gaza.

And I came to the first dialogue meeting, I was one of the organizers. And it was very for like a weekend, I think, or maybe Saturday. And

I just started to hear things I never heard before about the story that I knew nothing about. It wasn't people that would be received or anything like that just people, Palestinians from the West Bank, mostly that telling the story telling their story of the families.

It was very moving to me I was somehow I was able to listen to this. I'm not sure exactly why not I can better than anybody just somehow I was open to this. And it's really

helped me to understand something about the reality, something about their history. That,

again, not because of any nobody just ever told me this and nobody gave me the opportunity to have this kind of, of dialogue. But even then, and in this

in this moment, I never shared anything about my my brother, I didn't sit assaulted or any kind of connection. I didn't think you know, they want to hear about it. And I didn't know how to include my story. And things that happened to me and to my family. In this dialogue, it seems to me like, nobody really want to listen to this. And I didn't know exactly how to how to

bring it up.

So I just did it. And for many years, I have walked in connection with Palestinian from the West Bank from inside Israel. And I never told them anything about it, it was part of my biography, but nothing more.

And later on, when I was already a grown up in a father,

I was I went to some school, I did some work in completely different

matter. And there wasn't a meeting of the dialogue of the of the parents circle dialogue meeting of the parents repeat in one of the classes. So one of the main thing that parents will build is doing nothing these days, not this year, but until this year, is a dialogue meeting inside these schools like to people like us a Jew in a Palestinian getting into a school in a high school, usually of sometimes university or college. And I'll be sharing our stories and we have a dialogue meet at a meeting with the with the students there with the pupil. And this is the thing that happened in that school and I just heard about it and it says, can I come and listen? And they say of course and there was a woman that loves her child will also sister from some rockets that came from Lebanon in the early 80s. And it was just so moving to me to hear it and the way that she

it the way that tells the personal story was so much connected to the work she was doing in order to bring peace and to bring reconciliation and to help people to to to listen to each other and the way that

It the story she share help the Israeli students to listen to the Palestinian to the story he showed, there was some kind of process that needed to be, it needs to be combined.

And right, just right after the after this meeting, I went to the woman or somebody else that was the name escapes can how can I be part of this circle that I knew about it, but I never thought

it can help me in any way or can be used to me in any way. And they gave me a phone number email. And I think it was 2007 Maybe, or eight.

And that's that's the point where I joined the parent circle. And ever since I did maybe hundreds, but to the the least dozens of meeting like this.

Most of them in, in high schools in Israel.

And I think

I never thought about revenge. But I think because you're the dominant power.

It's much easy not to think about it, it's much easy to not to be to put your angriest that your anger aside, though,

you have much, much more things to hold for, in especially here because we have the conditions with Israeli lives are much more convenient, in terms of our rights that we have the freedom that we have to move. So I never thought about, you know, I didn't want I never thought about risking it in order to have some kind of revenge. And as, as the time went by, during this process that I was going through. And it was I have more and more idea Why do the Palestinians have such a hard feelings towards the Jews that not say I'm justify, and I'm not justifying anybody for any violence, and I'm not justifying anybody from killing my brother. Owen was a good man, he was just wanting to be good. He was a young man wanting to have a life thinking about what to go to study in academic and you know, and just have a girlfriend that they broke up after many years. And he was very sad about it. And, you know, it was just a young person that wants to live his his life, it wasn't like he didn't didn't deserve any kind of that in my parents never deserve neither, I never deserve that. I think this is the this is how the distinct is functioning. When the

when the this equality, and well the oppression is so heavy. So this is the the

feelings that coming up. And people are acting out those feeling that this is the way to act it out. It's not the thing that we want. It's not make sense in many ways. But sometimes people think this is the only thing they can do. And I think also Israelis many times, the only things they can do is that they can

read react by violence in order to defend themselves. But it's not all the time, really a defense many times just a way to preserve the power and the, in the in the domination that they're having.

And as part of what I do today, for many years, but especially in the last 10 or 12 years, I'm facilitating an organizer, and facilitator and organizer, organizer of

dialogue meeting of Jews and Palestinians who live inside Israel. It's part of what I'm doing in the parents can do it in other organizations.

And it's tango in some way. Because the reality become harder and harder. Also, this meetings become harder, it's harder, it's much harder to people to listen also in the dialogue meeting we do in the parent circle. For me at least say I could have noticed that it's time go by in the last few years. It's become harder and harder to the young people to listen. There is a very clear

brainwashing from the Israeli government is thinking about the thing that they are learning in schools and in

any university but especially in schools people really don't know about much about what is the Palestinians to some people in Israel in the Government of Israel that's still claim that there's no such thing as Palestinian, that it's not the Palestinians are not never existent. It's something this is not a nation

and this is what we are

This is I think, what is our battle right now. And of course, it's the seventh of October, it's become much harder because the, the level of the fear is so heavy, and the anger.

And, and the last thing I would say is that I think what we are trying to do, there's many, many, many other organizations that calling for peace and walking for peace, and all of them are important. And also, there are many people that have the same experience that I have, in terms of losing a member of the family, that completely won't agree with me.

Think about Jews. And I don't think because what's happened to me, I'm smarter than anybody. I think what we are trying to show that if as the faith such a paid such a heavy price that really changed our life, and each one in the way that he does for him or for her

if we decided and we can be together and listen to each other. So we want to create a model. And because if we can, maybe everybody can,

because it's something that maybe we just need to make a decision. And this decision, part of it, it's meant to look at some very heavy feelings that you might have of pain, anger, of

feeling that you will believe other people

feeling that you are a victim all kinds of

stuff, feelings that you need to face, in order to really be willing to listen to the other side.

But then we also know that when we are willing to listen to the other side, we found other friends that we be, we see that we are actually much more alike than we think we are. And that actually in the roots of everything in the sauce for eating, human being are never really enemies. This is just something that's happening to us in the place where we are growing up and educate and we can go against it. And this is what we are striving to, to, to show up and also to be some kind of Ambassador of hope. Because the

the helplessness and the discouragement that you can see right now, here, especially after the seventh of October, but given before is really really heavy people just don't believe that things can be different people just believe that the wall will be here forever. And you know, I grew up on my life those walls around me in different different levels of,

of how much is it?

It's severe, but it's all the time. It's more than bonus. I'm 50 years old. Everyday my life has some kind of violence around me. It's not easy to keep some kind of hope. But I think this is what we are trying to bring up. But we are not to give up. There are still many chances, Israelis and Palestinians historically we are not enemies is that in German? They have we have connection with German right now people are going and living in Berlin. And Germans come to here. So you know what's happening between is that in Palestine Palestinians, it's nothing to compare with what Germans do to the Jew. So of course, we can have good relationship we can benefit from being next to each other, instead of killing each other and fighting with each other.

Thank you. Oh, fair.

Yes. Thank you for sharing with us from childhood into this moment.

Not just your story, but your family's story. But a sense of like, what kind of the the narrative is like what you learned in school, what you learned in university, what kind of the, the dominant feeling is around you that leads to

people responding in this moment, the way that we're seeing, I'm wondering, Leila, as you were listening to Oh, fair speak. What came up for you?

If I can ask.

Could you please just repeat the question again? Yeah. As you were listening to ofera talk about growing up in Israel, not learning much about Palestinians. Palestinian history, not understanding why, you know, why? Why on earth would a Palestinian want to kill my brother at the, at the border? Why, you know, and then and then recently now, also just the sort of hardening the hardening of the narrative, whether in school or in university, to continue to not, you know, teach or acknowledge kind of the other perspectives Palestinian experience.

Yeah, as you were listening, what came up for you?

I was really shocked, not just because of what offer said, because when, when I,

the beginning become part of

part of that project and start to learn much more about the Israeli and we, we talk to them we have many discussion. And most of them, they are like offered, they didn't heard about any

of our stories, or they didn't know anything about

our history. So this is so hard sometimes.

This is so hard sometimes to understand, how's that come like? We live together how you didn't understand how and why that happen. After that, I understand that. But in the beginning, I was really shocked when I know because as Palestinian we thought that the Israeli understand and they know all the history, they know everything about us.

So this is why we insist to do this project, because that gives a chance for both sides to understand goes even for the Israeli will start to explain how we live and many things about our life. There were shocked, they didn't know anything about us. So we believe what we are doing. It's like the book The cracks on walls. Because we didn't have just that wall of Summit, we have walls of hatred, anger, and knowing each other.

There's many, many emotion.

I love when Rahman Hana, he's one of our

organization member when he said that anger eat you alive,

that will eat you alive.

And I agree about that.

Because when I said like for 16 years, are refusing to have any relationship with any Israeli person, that anger really control my life. Even with my relationship with my other children, I always felt there was something between me and them, prevented me from having a normal

communication with them. There's something always in my back, I didn't feel free. But when I become a member and the firm start to talk about what happened to me, and even when I forgive those people who were responsible about what happened to my son, I started to feel free. And maybe the lesson that I want to say about forgiveness, some people think when we spoke about forgiveness that meant we will forget no one will forget, I will never forget my son. And offer will never forget his brother.

But forgiveness, it's something for me, I will spoke about myself because this is not something that we ask people to do. And the parent circle, it's a personal choice. For me, it's to work, the hatred and the anger away and don't think about them anymore, because the anger will never solve anything. It will make everything much more complicated.

Gail has a question. Gail, do you want to unmute and ask him the question you have.

Sure. I

was really surprised to hear that Israelis didn't grow up learning anything about Palestinian history i i didn't in here. I'm seven years old, didn't know anything about it. But I'm shocked that you didn't. But I was curious about if Palestinians learn anything about the Holocaust and all of the issues of like what happened to all of these people who survived

and ended up in in Israel because there were hardly any places that would take them

Thanksgiving

this is a good question. For

for many, many Palestinian when you speak about the Holocaust, they're refused or they thought this is a fake story because there's really want to justify what they're doing if Palestine and even there's people with understand what happened about the Holocaust. They have been shocked. Like, if there's really people being under all that trauma and tragedy of they could do the same thing to other people. So

It's very complicated to explain some parents.

Yeah, we feel sorry about the people who were suffering in Auschwitz in the whole thing that happened for the Israeli people. We feel that

that was one of the worst thing could happen to any person. For me, I heard many stories. I saw many

movies, I saw many,

serious

project and that project, they call it a programs of all the Holocaust about

Leila, you're muted, you're muted. For just repeat what you said for the last four seconds, you muted for just a moment, when I saw these kinds of movies, and I listened to this kind of story, as I've been shocked, how could any person

you muted again, you're muted again, come back, you've been shocked about say it again.

I've been shocked. Sorry for that. But I've been shocked. Because when someone be How could some people could do and hurt other people, like when we've been in United States two years ago, and we went to the south, and we learn about this livery. And we went to many places, and heard many stories. I've been really shocked. How could people could hurt other people because they just want to control them just

justify themselves? So

this isn't hard for me to understand. How could someone like Hitler do that? To all the people? And for what?

Why he did that, like, no one just nothing justify what he did that to the Jews, not to any other people like he didn't just kill Jews? Yeah, no, Jews were the most, but

nothing could justify what he did.

You're reminding me, Leila about

a story. I've I've told it here, and referred to it.

The story of a Palestinian

University professor who wanted to take his students

to Auschwitz, to show them the truth and reality of what happened. And the reason is because we, you know, he wants and wants Israelis to understand Palestinian history. Well, if Israelis are going to understand Palestinian history, which is challenging for,

which is challenging for Israelis to, you know, open, open, open up and learn a completely different narrative. He said, you have to you have to learn the history of how so many Jews got here. And he his car was burned, his tires were slashed, his family was threatened. He was let go from the university faculty. And he ended up having to move to the United States with his family. Because the idea of learning about this history that is so contrary to the way that people see themselves and their own history is so threatening.

And, and then to come to the point that you're describing when No, You you actually look at it, and you absorb it. And it, it makes your heart bigger, it makes your heart hurt, but But it's more liberating to understand how did we get here.

And to to not to not perpetuate the closing down of the heart,

but to open the heart. And that's really what you're describing? I think

one of the things that we did in the current circle, like Yeah, we spoke about reconciliation, we have a good relationship with each other. But that didn't mean that we agree about everything. Like we disagree about few things, but we still respect each other. We still understand each other like when offer said anything I could understand why he did say that. What where this came from, and that will give me a chance to understand him to listen to him.

i We have another Well, we have one. One is Susanna. I just I want to read I want to read your question, because I think even the question just says it all well, actually, why don't you Why don't you go ahead and ask Susanna. Without without needing Leila and ofera to be experts on American history. But why don't you just go ahead and say the question. Sure, sure. I

Thanks, Rob I,