"Moses knew how to manage his boss..."

Today’s episode is a discussion between Rabbi Lizzi and Russ Linden, author of “Loss and Discovery: What the Torah Can Teach Us about Leading Change.” The interview was conducted with the active participation of our Morning Minyan crew. Every weekday from 8 - 8:30 am, you can join us to start our day with a spiritual check-in with one of the Mishkan rabbis.

https://www.mishkanchicago.org/event/summer-2022-morning-minyan/all/

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Produced by Mishkan Chicago. Music composed, produced, and performed by Kalman Strauss.

Transcript

Transcript

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
Hello, Russ! So welcome to the Morning Minyan, and the folks from the Minyan and maybe a few who have joined us. I'm so happy that you are here. Usually on Thursdays Thursdays are the days that I do Minyan. We talk about whatever's in the Torah portion, you know, paying homage to the Thursday market days where the, you know, ancient, ancient sages would read Torah in the marketplace, because that's where the people were on Thursdays. And I tried to restrain myself this week, because I knew you were coming now. And I knew that in addition to having lots to say about the entire Torah, this week's Torah portion in particular, like there's some good stuff in and I'll, I'll ask you about it. But I want to give all of you a little bit of a little bit of a bio of rest, just you know, he didn't just write a book. He is a management educator who specializes in organizational change. He's an adjunct faculty member at University of Virginia, and at the Federal Executive Institute. And he teaches consults primarily on collaboration, the human side of change, strategic thinking and acting, developing an agile and resilient culture and crisis leadership. His clients have included the US government, department of state treasury, Homeland Security, interior, Veterans Affairs, transportation and education, and worked across sectors. And I met Russ when I was a, what do you call like a scholar in residence at his shul, in Charlottesville, Charlotte.

Russ  Linden
We invited Lizzi to come we were looking for a new rabbi, she was not a candidate. And that's one reason why we invited her because we wanted Lizzi and two other guests to come and give us an idea of where the Jewish community synagogue and other Jewish communal organizations are going. We wanted to stretch our members to think creatively. So when we selected a new Rabbi, we were not just thinking about the past, but also about the future. In this he told us about Mishcon Chicago, and that's our relationship started. It was wonderful. So thank you, Lizzi. Welcome back. I hope it was a great trip.

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann  
Thank you. It was it was I'll talk about that another time. It was a great trip. Thank you. So you want to tell us sort of the impetus for this book, and maybe the most surprising things that came out of it for you.

Russ Linden
Lizzi already gave you some of the background, a lot of what I have done over the 3035 40 years that I've been teaching, and Consulting has to do with issues related to change and leadership. We happen to have a lay lead Minyan in our synagogue on Shabbat mornings. And I'm one of several people who take turns doing the deep re Torah. And about 1520 years ago, Lizzi. And members, it started to occur to me that I'm looking at stories that have to do with change. From the beginning, after God creates everything. God tells Adam what not to do. Interestingly, by the way, folks, Eve was not created yet. So this might also get us into a discussion of what happens when someone gets the message secondhand. But Adam is told what not to do. And that didn't work out so well. And there's, you know, terrible consequences. A little while later, God looks around and sees the whole earth is full of sin, and we know what happens, the Great Flood, and then and then God says, God, repent, says the text. I'm not going to do that. Again. God apparently thought that wasn't the best way to go. There's change after change. God meets Abram at a time called a Brahm and says to Abram, Lake Baja, go away, leave your house, leave your father, leave everything, you know, go to a land that I will show you. Wow. And then God explains and this will be you'll be the father of a great nation. So there's change after change after change. Many of them disrupted just a moment ago, Lizzi, you talked about all the awful news that we read about New York Times or elsewhere. A lot of the changes in the Torah may or may not be great, but they're disruptive. The disruption of Abraham's life. I'll talk a little bit later about God's meeting with Moshe total disruption, emotions life he's had 40 Pleasant years we assume in media and suddenly got his go. Got it. I've got a new job for you a new job description. So what I found in thinking about the Torah is that there are so many examples of change. And some of them the main character has handled them beautifully. In some it doesn't work got to the Garden of Eden, and I think we can and should learn from both of them. So that was the hook. Lizzi that was the hook. And what surprised me the most is 2400 2600 years ago, whatever whenever we think it was written or more longer ago. It is so relevant. It is so relevant. We're living through so much disruption Today, January 6, the end of Roe, sometimes positive disruptions like the me to movement, forcing organizations to take allegations of sexual misconduct seriously. So we're living through disruptive times to change the rules that kind of smack us in the face and say, What's going on here. And the great surprise for me is how relevant these ancient messages are.

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
Okay, so we don't have we don't have a lot of time. What are the most important lessons about change that you that you zeroed in on? In writing this book? Even though I want to talk about the Torah, there's a great book on change that I'll mention briefly because of the message and it's a message in the Torah. The book is leadership on the line, Heifetz and lynskey. And there's two sentences in the first chapter folks that are worth the cost of the book and the sentences are, people don't resist change, per se. People resist loss. People resist loss, what's the connection?

Russ Linden 
For years until I got that book I looked, I looked at the people continually fetching within hours of leaving Egypt, here comes pharaohs, people, people say, Moses, what did you do bring us back better to live there than die in the desert. I used to think what such ingrates after what Moses and God have just done, and now I've gotten so much more awareness, we resist loss. And what did the people lose? As soon as they left Egypt, they lost certainty. They knew what life enslavement was, like awful, but they could understand and predict it. Who knows what's going to happen to them and 40 years of wandering, and what is a land of milk and honey mean? Anyway, they knew the people who were supervising them in Egypt, they might have been terrible, they knew them. They didn't know Moshe. If they remembered him, what they remembered was he had killed an Egyptian. So maybe this is a scary character. So the people lost a tremendous amount. And what did they get freedom, which is wonderful, but a huge responsibility. And ultimately, God decides perhaps too much responsibility for people who were only new slavery as adults. There's a really interesting comment, by the way, before I go forward, the power of laws when it comes to changes is the point here. It's from a scholar on change, who knows the Torah and he said once Moses could take the people out of Egypt, but he couldn't take the Egypt out of the people. The adults couldn't get past that that mentality, maybe we'll think a little bit more later. Here's a quick human example, folks. Some of you, I'm sure are parents, grandparents, think about your first child. I can think of Jackie and my first child, little Becca, what a joy. It was a miracle I just in a miracle, right. What did we lose at least temporarily? Well, energy, sleep time, time with ourselves time with our partners control. I remember Jackie once going in the bathroom, locking the door, she didn't have to go. She just needed a little time to herself that she could control because everything was chaotic. Do we wish you didn't have kids? Of course not. But every change involves loss. Another lesson from the Torah. You're not a leader. Unless you have followers. You're not a leader you might think you are it's a position. No, it's a it's an act in Paulding followers. And here Lizzi I hope you won't get embarrassed. I'm going to quote you. Lizzi is one of several rabbis folks and leaders who wrote commentary. One commentary at the end of each chapter. This is the commentary at the end of the first chapter, the first chapter is called it all starts with communications. And what Lizzi wrote is how she started off thinking about and getting ready to create Mishcon Chicago, you're ready. Before ever holding a surface for Mishcon. I had dozens of conversations with people in Chicago, potential congregants, potential funders, potential antagonists, I call them up and ask them for coffee, and solicited advice in reaction to this idea of creating a new spiritual community. I asked them about their prayer lives, their sense of fulfillment and satisfaction with the Jewish resources available. And I listened. And she listened. And then and then she described the vision she was nurturing. How many leaders have we seen who start by saying, Here I am, here's the vision. And maybe it excites people or not, but it's not a shared vision. It's their patient. And here's Lizzi, you know, doing intelligence gathering and also forming relationships. So you're not a leader unless you have followers and that often means relationships. Real briefly, in the Torah. There are two times folks where the phrase low Tov is mentioned in the first time is near the beginning. God is created man. And then God says it's low Tov, it's not good for man to be alone. And that's where God creates Eve. I'll tell you about the second time that use later it's about relationships. Third, I learned from the Torah that effective leaders learn and grow. Now I'm going to say something that's controversial, and if you disagree, that's fine. That'll make it more exciting. I see God is a character in the Torah, not the source of all being but the written character that people wrote about as learning and changing example, God meets Adam and says what to do and what not to do. You can eat this you can't eat that. Got me to Brahmin says, Leila ha go. God meets, no one says create the ark. So it's all top down. It's not to a God started to form a relationship with a Brahmin with Abraham, when Abraham says, you're going to wipe out all of Saddam, but God, what if there are 50, righteous people, you folks know the story and then negotiate God allows that Abraham does it, by the way, which humility? I don't want to go too far God, but what if there are 30. But the real relationship and I view starts when God meets Moshe, Moshe sees the burning bush, but it's not being consumed. Now, I don't know about you, but if there's a bush of any size and it's burning, you'd have to pause more than a second or two to see it's not being consumed. And perhaps, and this is when God gives Moshe the message, perhaps God sees something in Moshe, like some awareness, the ability to take things in. But here's how the conversation starts. And I'm going to look at my notes because I want to get it right. God starts by saying, I'm the God of your ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Let's just start stop there. There was no introduction from God, to to Adam, to Noah, to Abram, Gods it's Lindsay, it says, Oh, someone said, Lizzi. I've never I've heard great, I've never met you. But I knew your grandmother. What an amazing person. This is God starting to be, in a sense connecting human. Abraham Joshua Heschel taught us God in search of man, God wanting relationships. God gives the message go to Pharaoh, tell him to let the people go. And Moses, of course, is astonished. And Moses says, Well, who am I? And here are the five powerful words that God others, God says, I will be with you. But in an incredible empathic message. A good therapist gives that message when we go to a therapist, because we want to make some hobby with you on this journey. Moses goes on he has a bunch of Yes, buts, Moses, but what if the Egyptians don't believe me? They hadn't. They had idols back, then you're just excuse me and invisible God. God says, I'll create miracles. I'll create miracles. So they'll see that there's something behind your message, Moses, but God, you know, this one, folks, I'm slow of speech and tongue. Maybe Moshe had a lisp? What does God say not to worry, I'll give you the words to say, I will be with you. And Moses, finally s. But it's kind of like desperate, please choose someone else. And God says, you'll be with your brother Aaron. This is forming relationships, folks. And this is what good leaders do. And this is what good leaders do, which is they learn. So leaders have to be adaptable. And I think Moses is and God is. And those are some powerful messages I see in the Torah.

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
Okay, Ross, thank you, this is so this is so fun. You gotta you gotta group here also, like we we love talking about natural, we love talking not just about the, the positive, and you know, the the qualities that we want to emulate about our leaders, and about the characters in the Torah, God included. But also we love picking them apart, including God, and trying to understand from the things that they didn't actually do so well. You actually pointed I feel like God is a very easy character in the Torah to criticize, because God can take it, you know, like, you know, whatever it is, you know, the actual master of the universe can handle a little bit of human poking and prodding. But we might be a little more protective of some of our other you know, are more like family, Moses, Abraham. But I wonder if you might scratch the surface of like, what are what are things that Moses actually didn't get? Right, or, you know, things that, you know, what were his strengths and shortcomings as a leader, Moses, our great leader. Great. By the way, folks, I hope we have time at the end for questions. If you want to throw questions into the chat live, you see if you want to pick up you out.

Russ Linden 
Quickly, some strengths. Moses knew how to manage his boss knew how to manage God. Again, that may seem sacrosanct. I don't mean it in a manipulative way. There were several times sorry, when God is so angry. The golden calf is a great example, that God says I'm going to annihilate the people. That was God's reaction to God. They had just heard the 10 commandments weeks before, by the way, folks, what's the second commandment no idols. So God and Moses, her peers. Moses gets past his fury. That's later Moses thinks about God overreacting and Moses says, God, what will your enemies say? Most This is thinking, thinking strategically about God's legacy. What will your enemy say? They'll say, Oh, this great God took the people out of Egypt, just to kill them in the desert. And God says, Okay, I'm not going to kill them, not going to wipe them out. So managing up having the end it took a relationship of trust. Not everybody can do that. Moshe, Moses was flexible. Sometimes he was stern. Sometimes he was an advocate for the people stood up for the people. Sometimes he was open to feedback. One of my favorite stories in the Torah is he is when Moses father in law utero comes to visit Moses by the way, Ito something I just realized the other day when I read it more carefully. Ito brings Moses family. Moses has been wandering for months at this point by himself. So talk about relationships. As we all know Ito watches Moses for a day Moses doing all the work judging all the people day and night, he's tired, the people are waiting. And what is utero say this is the second time there's a low Tov, just twice in the whole torah, low tov. Moses, what you're doing is low Tov, it's not good. You're wearing yourself out and teach us Moses to delegate. This is a management method to create a system. So now we have the first kind of organization chart. Maybe it's a poor runner for our system of courts today. So Moses could be flexible. He listened. A friend of mine says can you imagine listening to your father in law Moses did Moses did any adapted? We call them Moshe Rabbeinu for a good reason. He was a great teacher and one of the best ways to teach as you know as Lizzi you do is through your behaviors. Moshe was a match sometimes showed the human side when people went too far. And finally, are you folks reading penthouse these days? I know some congregations are with the Israeli now

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
This week is partially with us. I was going to ask you next about the next thing but okay, take it take us there take us there.

Russ Linden 
So in Pinhas only once in the whole Torah does a phrase start by you to bear Moshe i don't know i lay more. It's familiar because it's, it's almost all the same as what we always read, but it's a little different. It's usually by Universal. I don't know I almost Shalimar the sages say be careful, watch something when it's this different. And what happens next? Moshe tells God of this I'm sorry this happens just after God has reminded Moses so he needed to Moses you're not going to see the promised land. By far the greatest disappointment it must have been for Moses. And what is Moses say? By you to bear Moshe la more la la? I don't know, I lay more. Moses says okay, God, please pick a successor. The people need someone to take them into the land. We probably want to have time but God chooses a very different kind of person, Joshua, Joshua fierce fighter. So Moshe has the ability to listen to adapt. And all like all good leaders. He thought about his successor shortcomings. The Rabbi's tell us his brother, Aaron was a peacemaker, I assume because through that, that he had good interpersonal relationships. I don't know that Moses had great interpersonal skills. Sometimes he could be caring, but sometimes he I think he missed the cues, he had a hard time with empathy, and that people gave a lot of reasons to be upset. I think Moses could have used Aaron much more, especially when we get into numbers where Moses is just clobbered by one disappointment after another, and the sages say he tended not to be at his best. A second thought Lizzi Moses only gave free praise, according to the great Rabbi Jonathan Sacks one time and the entire Torah. And it's when the Mishkan was created. You folks know something about him Mishkan, you've created your own. In creating the Mishkan Moses swatches, Moses gives them information gives them instruction, and at the very end, the text reads, and the people have concluded their work. And Moshe blessed the people. Well, once in 40 years, it's kind of Slim pickins. Given the breadth of all the changes, I think they could have used a lot, a lot more strokes. And that leads to the third, maybe criticism or shortcoming. I'm not sure Moses ever understood the magnitude of the changes that people had to make. It's not just that they left the known for the unknown to look at more on to the unknown later because it's a challenge to our brains. It's that they're asked to require to take on the responsibilities of freedom. How are they prepared for this? They had no role models. They had no leaders in Egypt, according to the text who can inspire them. All we know is there was Moses who did some things and then left. There was no leader to tell them, you know, slavery is not natural. They had no Nelson Mandela. No MLK, no George Washington and Alexander Hamilton. So they didn't grow up in slavery. With anything but slavery, and now they're told, take responsibility for the hundreds of laws. It's an enormous, enormous task. There's a phrase that those of us who teach change like to use, which is when the challenge is huge, shrink the change, break it down into smaller steps. And when we get to the Mishcon, I'm going to describe for you what I think is a great example of that. I'm not sure Moshe understood how much it would have helped. And he kind of broken the changes down into small pieces. I'm looking at the text. Was that something we should look at? The text message?

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann
No, no. Okay.

Russ Linden
Having said all that, I think Moses had a near impossible task. Because of what I just said, These people weren't ready for change. And God, of course, ultimately decides 20 and older and you're not going to make it. But he was human. You may see some other criticisms that you folks have discussed that you want to mention as well. Okay. So first of all, I want to say,

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann  
If people who are listening, have questions, or observations of your own, I think this the the lens that you're bringing, to reading Torah is a really compelling one, and not an obvious one, which is the entire Torah is the story of managing change, you know, and you can think about that as like, sort of corporate change management, once the people Israel exists as a people, you know, and then you get sort of the, the resistance of the group, you know, sort of the tendency of the group toward, basically conservatism, which is to say, conserving the old ways, because like, this is what we know, even if it's not what we need for the future. But it's hard, you know, the loss of that on a group level, but then also on an individual level that like, the story of transformation for any character, and also for any person is going to be a story of loss. As much as it's a story of, you know, what we gain, and how we change and how that helps ourselves and other people. I think that's a really compelling and interesting way to look at every character's journey from Adam and Eve, to the story of Noah, to Abraham, Sarah, all all of the ancestors, Moses, obviously. I don't know if you were on but I juxtaposed the daughters of solo flad that we meet in this week's Torah portion at the end of this week's Torah portion, I juxtapose them to pin class, who we meet at the end of last week's Torah portion. And, of course, pin class is sort of the righteous zealot character, he comes in with his spear and his righteous anger, and he kills people and he's, you know, sort of the the, like, guy who's forgotten, I'm for God. Yeah. You know, and, and it even seems like the character of God cautiously has to reward this behavior. You know, I think there's, there's reason to believe God doesn't love it. But the fact is, somebody needed to do something. So you know, it was like, it was like, you know, a blunt tool for maybe a situation that required a lot more nuanced. But in the moment, somebody had to do something. So okay, there's pin class over here. And then you've got the daughters of solo who had the five daughters who come to Moses. And you know what, I'll read this because you have it at the beginning of chapter five. The chapter is called listening to your inner voice. When speaking truth to power. The daughters of Zelophehad came forward. The names of the daughters were my class, Noah hoga, Milka and Tirtza. They stood before Moses. They stood before Moses, Eliezer, the priests, the Chieftains, and the whole assembly of the entrance of the tentative meeting and they said, Our father died in the wilderness. He was not one of Clorox bash at faction, which banded together against God. And he left no sons, let not our father's name be lost to his clan, just because he had no sons give us a holding among our fathers kinsmen. IE, the tour is not feminist enough. Girls aren't included. Girls can't own property. That's ridiculous. We should be able to inherit our father's property carry on his name. What do you think Moses? Can you talk about what you what you gain from this section of Torah?

Russ Linden
Well, oh, my goodness. You know, we need good stories these days. And if ever there was a happily ever after story, this is it. I mean, first of all, the fact that it's women, the fact that they request to change with respect to the chieftains and the holy of holies the holiest place one, one woman by herself might have been overwhelmed. So they went to they were united. Moses apparently thinks it's above his pay grade says God, what do you think and God immediately says the women are right. Nowhere else in the Torah. So what do we learn? This is about change. Right changing a law, it gets modified a little bit in the next parsha. It's only if they marry within their tribe but so much. They were asking for one change. They didn't ask for all the laws to change. So one lesson is one step at a time. By the way, Ruth Bader Ginsburg early in her career, same strategy. Here's one sexist law. There's other ones we'll get to, we're gonna go one step at a time. When she when the women say his name will be lost, that could speak to any father among the hundreds of 1000s of Israelites who had no sons. We don't want his name to be lost. They're not selfish. They're not selfish. They've they revered their father, they thought strategically, he wasn't a follower of Korra. Imagining Moses might say, Oh, he's one of these, you know, guys who made life difficult for me. Now he was loyal. So they respected the male hierarchy once change at a time, but they asked for a major change. And God says, Yes. God is so complicated. I got the character of God, I can't get my arm, my head around it. But this is a happily ever after story, and surely we need them. And you know what, there's a famous rabbi who is so famous, I'm forgetting his name. It's in the commentary of one of the machine who says for 40 years, the men broke through fences, and the women repaired them. May be a bit of an exaggeration. But I mean, without the women, we wouldn't have Moses, right? His mother, his sister, the Pharaoh's daughter. So this isn't a remarkable story of change. And it's one I think we all should take to heart. I'm so glad you mentioned.

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
Any other Oh, I'm reading Martin's come in here. I once got in trouble for a joke. I told it a large nonprofit in New York. Some of the Jewish folks in the room founded offense. I've got some in back to be accountable. And the main Jewish guy had to talk to his name pin has never made. Well, gosh, I mean, the Martin Ed Martin just disappeared. Yeah, interesting. It is interesting that people name their name children after this particular character. We didn't talk so much about him. Do you talk about him in the book at all? Rough sir. He doesn't make it in. Maybe there's a reason for that. Yeah, he's he's offered a breach shalom, a covenant of peace. And I wonder if that's a little bit like, like Felicia praying as she did a moment ago for the person who disrupted her meeting last night? I don't know if you were there for that moment. But yeah, right, you know, just God sort of saying to pin us, like, I think the thing I can offer you is more peace in your heart. That that might be a different strategy for trying to achieve what I understand what your intentions were there. But maybe there's a different way to do it starts from a different place inside. I'm looking at the clock, it's 9:06. I'm wondering if there's anybody here who you know, like our, our community here is full of people who are both knowledgeable about Torah, and also knowledgeable and curious about things in our world. So like, it doesn't have to be a question or an observation limited to Torah could be about you know, a dynamic you observe out in the world or in your, you know, place of work. And to just have the expertise of somebody who's been in change management for 40 years. comment in response, so, you know, I'll just like open the floor for a moment. Feel free to just unmute.

Ellen 
Okay, I'll share something I guess. Let's see. Let me go on video. Here we go. Hey, Alan. So hi. So I'm reading this book right now by Charles Eisenstein, have you heard of him, he might be somewhat controversial, a philosopher and he's kind of saying similar to Audrey Lord, that we're not going to change the world with the same tools that we've been using. And, you know, up until now, we've been living in this world sort of, of where we have we follow the tools of the story of we're separate. Life keeps improving, we can have control over change, we can control we can, mankind can, you know, conquer nature. So it's a very sort of world of separation. And as opposed to eliminating all these polarities, these binaries that we have and having more reunion, not seeing mankind is so separate from or and in control. So my question is, I guess, is that something that you're looking at? IE, how can the tools that we're using for change, be different come from a different story, a different narrative a different mentality.

Russ Linden
I'll answer that but what you said Ellen rim I don't know this individual what you said reminds me of what Rabbi Soloveitchik once called Adam one and add them to Adam one has dominion over the earth. That's there's a lot of verses in Genesis about that briefly, Adam to is mentioned in terms of tending the garden. And where some people go with it is we have the domineering, which you talk to, I'm in control, I'm tough, I achieve things, the action oriented, then we have the more nurturing who doesn't live who doesn't shape and change but lives within harmony, that you may know much more about this than I do. Rabbi Lizzi. That's a short take.

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
That's a pretty good summary. And there's so much in there in those two versions, you know, one one, Dom one atom, human, you know, proto human is the verb is little debt, the verbs are like, little doubt will is Shaumbra. Like to to work the earth to guard the earth to take care of the earth. And, and that's Adam too, but Adam, one is sort of like to have dominion over the fish in the sea. And, you know, it's and it's sort of, yes, it's it's a much more controlling power over rather than power with kind of, kind of construction. And the fact of the matter is, these are two different stories about one creature, you know, at least two different interpretations, or two different stories about Adam. Two different interpretations.

Russ Linden 
Are both described in the text?

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
Yes, exactly. It's, they're both in the text literally, like chapter one and chapter two. And so the torah, the torah really holds the complexity of these different dimensions of the human being.

Russ  Linden
So just to give a quick response to what's a much more complicated, it's a wonderful question, Alan, by the way. Lizzi, do you have my happen to have my email address, perhaps you could put in the in the chat if anybody wants to do that. But just to go one step further LM, there's an approach to change called appreciative inquiry. And I'm just going to give you a brief overview from 30,000 feet, rather than saying, Okay, folks here, where it's where we are, here's where we need to go. Here's what's going to happen. You start by what Rabbi Lizzi did, in creating Mishcon, you start by interviewing people to find out something about when have we, as an organization been at our best? Now you, as the leader, have an idea, and many people have an idea, we need to do something different, we need to change, maybe it's a radical need to change. But instead of starting there, you say, when have we been at our best? And just let's describe that? And how are we now versus there? Now, how do we deal with the gap? If you start with that, first of all, people are starting off on a positive, even if they're pretty upset about things now? Well, you know, there was a time when we used to be great at and maybe they're imagining a little bit better than it was. Okay, so we've so you're also empowering people, we've done some of the things that we think we need to do more. Here's where we are now, you probably have far less resistance, because we're starting with a gap that people care about, you probably have more positives, people are much more interested in, in acting on positives and unchanging negatives. My mother was great at this, she would find the best parts of people. And of course, they loved being around Evelyn, and because she brought out the best in him. That's, by the way, one of the greatest definitions I've ever learned of a good marriage is people who are good partnership, people who bring out the best in each other. So identifying when we've been great. And building on those strengths to address the shortcomings. is, I think, a different model, perhaps, than the one that this person you described was talking about. I'm not sure I know enough about it to say anything else. And I don't even know if that's on the mark. But that's what comes to mind.

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
That's so a that's so interesting and powerful. And I think, not not counter intuitive. Exactly. But I think it is counterintuitive, because our instinct, generally when confronted with a thing we don't like or a thing we want to change, especially about somebody else or about a situation is to be critical of it, you know, just name the thing that's wrong. As you know, taking it back to parenting, also, you know, something that we're constantly working on in our house is not saying don't do that, but rather saying, do this other thing that I know you know how to do. You're so good at speaking with nice words in a nice tone as a, which takes more effort for me to say as a parent than stop whining. Right? And I think that's true, you know, writ large as well.

Russ Linden
Just a quick note on that, and then I'm happy to come If you're new, or if you need to stop, that's fine. One of the psychologists I quote in the book frequently Lizzi says, Every talking about a couple, every complaint is really a disguised request. So imagine, the woman says to the man, I don't mean to be sexist, you never listen, that's a complaint. But what's the request, I need you? I value your opinion. I respect your thoughts. It's hard to say that when we're angry, but that's really the need. If we start there, as you were saying, Lizzi it's so much easier for the other person to listen.

Rabbi Lizzi Heydemann 
That's beautiful. I think this is a great place to wrap up. I know people I know people have their day to get to, but I'm so glad. I'm so glad we made space in the day for a conversation about Torah and about how we, how we are in the world in a rapidly changing world, a world that demands a lot of us demands a lot of us emotionally, and mentally, to do our best to be agents of change and to change ourselves when necessary. And so it's just it's a pleasure to talk to you. And I feel like the proof is in the pudding. Also your you know, your advice about how to you know how to do this over here, Ellen, I'll take you off of spotlight here about how to do this. You've got great kids, one of whom is here in Chicago, Becca, who, you know, like doing great work at the Hartman Institute. And you know, we don't we don't really see each other because she's in Skokie. But, but you've you've built these lessons into your into your personal life and into your family. And you know, you're not just walking the walk. You're not just talking the talk. You are walking the walk.

Russ Linden
Thank you so much, Lizzi, that touches my heart. I'll tell Becca.