Mental Health Shabbat — Confronting Addictive Behaviors

Today’s episode is a Shabbat Replay of our April 19th virtual Friday night service. In commemoration of Mental Health Shabbat, Rabbi Steven was joined by Andrew Fishman, a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in addictive behaviors, for a conversation about healthy boundaries with our screens.

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Produced by Mishkan Chicago. Music composed, produced, and performed by Kalman Strauss.

Transcript

Transcript

Hello and welcome to contact ky. Today's episode is a Shabbat replay of our April 19 virtual Friday night service. In commemoration of mental health Shabbat, Rabbi Steven was joined by Andrew Fishman, a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in a ticket of behaviors for a conversation about healthy boundaries with our screens. Now, take it away rabbi,

every year JCF as partners with Chicago area synagogues to do a series of events, usually around a Shabbat, but now extending kind of the week before and after as well, where we focus in on a mental health issue that is affecting our community to raise awareness around its occurrence within our communities, our families, our own lives, and also connecting people with resources. And this year, the theme is focusing on non substance or behavioral addictions. And it's these are activities that get in the way of our ideal functioning in our lives. And the interesting thing about most of these activities is that they're not inherently bad. We talked about things like sex shopping, using our screens, our phones, these are all things that we actually need to do, right like, like they're, they're good to do or they're part of, of a good and rich, lived experience. But like many things that are good, sometimes they can begin to get in their way of getting other things done. And sometimes they can become coping mechanisms that aren't ideal. And sometimes they might just be something that we want to change our relationship to. And so I'm really excited to have Andrew Fishman here. He is a licensed clinical social worker with a junior percenter working with emerging adults and teens. And for tonight, in particular, where I'm most interested in is he also has an expertise in screentime, in video games, both their use for creating community and connection and exploring identity, and also how we might develop addictions, or struggle with our use of those things as well. And so I would love to turn it over to Andrew, who also writes as you mentioned, for Psychology Today, on this particular topic, I'm so excited to have you in today for a conversation also to to connect you with our community more largely as an amazing resource around this topic. So I just love to jump jump right in with. I give a little bit of an introduction about you. But if you were to tell more about yourself, your background, the work you do. And I think people would really love to know also like how you got into this work, I think social work more generally, but also the area of video games and online communities more specifically. Yeah,

thank you for thank you for having me. This is this is lovely. My name is Andrew Fishman. He him pronouns. I've been a gamer since I was a since I was a little kid. So when I worked at JC Fs at the adolescent sort of weighing response for teens, my supervisors would give me all of the kids that didn't really understand what they were talking about. You know, he's he's talking about buying skins in fortnight, I don't know what that is, can you just talk nerdy to this kid, so I became the, I became the go to for those adolescents and ended up working also with all the students who were gaming instead of doing homework or going to school. And so I found this really interesting, I did as much extra research and reading as I could and just sort of fell in love with connecting people connecting people around this part of their lives.

As a, as a fellow gamer, myself, I appreciate the the nerd connection. And I know that for many people, I think I think teens are particularly like I remember just the power of being able to immerse yourself in a different world not unlike, you know, reading a book or, or kind of finding a fandom that you obsess about in terms of like a TV show, or, or even even board games or more of these imaginative activities that allow us to connect with people. They allow us to try on new identities. I think, particularly for a lot of queer kids, I know, for example, the ability to try on maybe a gender expression or identity that they don't get to safely try out in their lived experience. And even just like decompressing from, like the stress of the world, are all I think really wonderful things about about video games about online spaces. But I'm curious where you begin to see problems or the potential for addictive behaviors, kind of how do we know like, how do we draw that line? Like where do we know where do we know where that line exists? It's, that's

a great question. And unfortunately, it's one that doesn't really have a clear answer for every person. So there's actually an exercise Do with a lot of my clients to get at this question and volunteer. So I'm calling on you, Rabbi Steven. It has to do with our values. So I keep actually this deck of values cards. This is my office. These cards say things like family nonconformity, moderation, I'm gonna put I'll put them up on the screen. But I asked people to start sorting them into piles of not important, important and very important. We're going to share my screen. Put this up. Can you all see that? Absolutely. Right. So for most people, most people, people value their family as one of their top five or six, let's say whether that's, you know, biological family, 1000 family, however, they're defining it, it's important. So you have to really look inward and assess, is what I'm doing, bringing me closer to the people that I love to my family, or is it pushing us apart? If you are, for example, playing alongside them, or if it helps you relax in a way that makes it easier to be present with them later, then that seems pretty supportive. To me, that seems like it is bringing the family unit closer together. On the other hand, if you are missing time with your kids, because you can't miss you can't miss a raid, it's probably because it's something that you want to rethink. And so it really comes down to what you value and what is important to you as a person for whether it is helpful or harmful. So can I ask you to go through this list, I'm going to scroll to and just pick out, let's say five of your top values. So in the meantime, I'm just going to read some of these out loud. These are acceptance, accuracy, achievement, authority, autonomy, beauty, caring, change, comfort, commitment, compassion for others, making a contribution in the world, cooperating with others. To act creatively, to be polite and courteous to people to live in harmony with the environment, ecology being a value. Stop me when you have to.

Yeah, I have a few. I got I got some I was looking at lists as well here.

Yeah. So this is a list from motivational interviewing.org. But there's a bunch of these are just called values, cards. I just laminated and cut these out. That's what I have in my office. So which one? Which ones did you pick.

So I was looking through them. I feel like compassion, right to feel an act on concern for others. I really also liked the kind of pair of loved and loving right to be loved by those around me and to also give love to others. Openness, to be open to new experiences, ideas. And then because I'm in that mood, because we're here at Shabbat, spirituality felt like a natural fifth. So I think I'll stick with those those five, right is compassion, to be loved and to love others, to be open and to and to grow spiritually.

So let's let's take compassion, for example. That's the first one you mentioned. I think probably because it's alphabetically first I'm seeing but that's, that's fine. Do you feel like the way that you interact with games? is helping you be a compassionate person? Does it ever get in the way of being compassionate and being present for other people in your life? Or is it sort of neutral? And it's just a hobby?

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I so so two things come to mind immediately, just as to kind of have a quick analysis. One of the ways that my partner I spent together is actually playing games together, which I think I think air was also on that list and they feel related to me, but it like, even like kind of side by side time, or doing a game together can be a way of showing care of showing like even an interest in right like even picking up a game that's like not my normal game, but like one that my partner loves is like a way of like, showing interest in care for and and to, and to have that connected moment. I've also learned that if I spend maybe it's a more than an hour, like on the screen, I can get really grumpy like I can get a little irritable. So I do like I do. I've learned to intentionally self limit. This is something I did it a long time ago. It's become a habit now. But I do remember a time whereas if I spent like, all day staring at the screen, I would actually get really irritable, like I wasn't able to actually have compassion For those around Vegas, I feel kind of drained and not not happy. So

it sounds like it sounds like you've done a lot of reflecting on this already, which is wonderful. And so it sounds like when you're playing with your partner, it is supporting those values of compassion, the pair of loved and loving that you're talking about. And it is bringing the two of you closer together in a way that really supports your values. But as you mentioned, when there's too much of it, it starts to hinder that. So you've already done this step of thinking, you know, maybe at those points, it is not supportive of my goals, my values, my, you know, my wishes for myself in the world. And so I should cut back to the point where it is now only supportive of me.

Mm hmm. So would you say that then I guess for folks could even maybe do like a self assessment. I think using a very similar tool, I love the idea that it's so values based. One of the ways that we try to help people think around even their Jewish practice, is rather than to start in the practice itself of like, do you do X or Y is like, well, you know, kind of what are your values and then like, actually match up with the practice, I always use the example of like, if you value opening up your home being a host, right, like, ask people for Shabbat dinner, but if you value like solitude and rest, like having a bunch of people over to your home is probably not a great Jewish practice, I feel like this feels kind of very related.

Yeah, I think I think one of the big critiques I have with the idea of video games being like a menace to society, is that we focus so much on productivity, and work and labor as a, almost a measure of work. And I, I reject that in a fundamental way, I don't think that, you know, if work is important to you, great. If that is a value that is inherent to who you are, and what you want, how you want to live your life, wonderful, that should be on your list. If it's not, if you are a person who can't work, or, you know, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean that the games that you're playing are making your life worse, or that it's their fault, or that you should be ashamed of it, or that you need to change anything. Leisure time is important. And I don't think that the pressure that we all have to constantly be going is a healthy one. So I'm glad that you mentioned that. It's that it's individual.

What I'm curious about are, you know, working with folks who engage in these particular communities, I mean, you know, obviously, knowing that some some gaming companies have a solo right to solo activity. Some of them are much more collaborative, right, either with people in person or with people online. I'm curious, what are some of the benefits that you see, right for this kind of online community?

As you mentioned earlier, they get to try on a new persona. I know people in my personal and professional lives who are trans or non binary. And the first way that they started to experiment was playing a game Animal Crossing doesn't limit the clothing that you choose to the gender you select the you know, the shape of the face, and whether it is eyelashes or not. So maybe they try on a dress, and does that make them feel cute? Or does it make him feel kind of weird. If that can give you some information about how you want to then express yourself in a more challenging way later, maybe by putting on one in in real life, games are a safe way to practice that kind of thing. And to practice talking to people to build relationships to build skills in a way that is not nearly as challenging as going out to a crowded room and just trying to make a friend is it's a shared activity. It's safe, it's familiar. And you can do it as much or as little as you like.

So I wanted to say, you know, we're a community of not all people might be familiar with the gaming community. And some people might be like, Oh, what is this? Like, what does this have to do with me? But I'm so conscious of the fact that like, you know, we're doing an online Shabbat service right now we're having it Yeah. And actually, nearly 10% of our membership is out of state. So their engagement with us is through screens, we also have a really amazing disability and chronic illness group that meets regularly that often engages online and with our services, our classes, all of those things, and then for other folks because of childcare and commuting and there's a million reasons that people might want to engage with community online. So, so kind of with, like, I guess the question I have is, with the joy and the opportunity for access with the fact that like, we also just need to get online to like check emails and do bill, right, how do we actually develop some good boundaries and like healthy habits if we suddenly say like, okay, Hey, I know that like, I'm going to open up YouTube and like get lost in it for hours and hours and hours. And I really want to get on to YouTube like watch services tonight like how like, what are strategies that people can think about of like kind of helping create boundaries to to create space for the good, but also maybe like, not, not kind of falling into to old habits or habits that might we might not serve us in that moment.

Yeah. For me, I try to I try to be intentional about when I'm when I'm playing a game, when I'm on screens, and what I'm doing. So I want to make sure, for example, that every time I turn on a game, it's because I am choosing to, if I get to the point where I'm only playing a game, because I'm going to miss out on something if I don't log on, or I'm playing a game, even though I don't really like that game because I feel obligated or because there's social pressure to it's probably time for me to move on from that game. If I like a TV show, and I'm watching it, because it is my choice to use my leisure time in that way. Great. If I feel more stressed out after watching it, and I don't like the show all that much. And I just feel like I can't not watch it. That's that's a bad sign. So for me, it is a matter of stepping back. And in the moment thinking why am I why am I doing this right now it did, I just opened Instagram because it was a reflex and it didn't even notice until it was in my hand and on and on. Then that feels different than you know what I am curious about what people are going on or are posting right now. I'm going to go on Instagram, and then opening the app. So So then going back to values if I noticed that I'm neglecting things that are important to me, it also might be time to reassess.

I love the idea of bringing in kind of a consciousness into your practice. I mean, it's so much what I mean, that's what Shabbat is about. It's what ritual it really is about, I always say that ritual, whether one kind of invests in kind of ritual having cosmological significance or, or just being part of the chain of tradition, connecting us to community identity. Regardless of why we do ritual, one of the things that I think is so beautiful about it is that it disrupts us it actually like says, Hey, pay attention to this moment. Like what why? Like, why are you lighting candles right now? Like, you know, why? Why are we singing this song? You know, we're about to pass up, which is actually all about, like, all these things, getting us to ask the questions that actually lead us to retell the Passover story, right? So it's kind of awareness of the moment. You know, it just makes you think that there should be like a, like a blessing or ritual before like opening your screen, like just like, hey, like, I'm actually bringing consciousness right now. I think one of the things I'm thinking about is that I don't know if it comes from a militia, I don't think it was a malicious place. I think it just comes from a like, we want more users to engage with this kind of place. But so many games, social media, certainly develop mechanisms to kind of like, like, push that little like dopamine button, like, it's the like, it's the, it's the points, it's the you know, kind of login now for this, like, very limited time opportunity to do XYZ. If we find that that kind of hook keeps bringing us back in, I don't know, if you have any thoughts around that, like how we might address that.

The first thing that I recommend people do is to start noticing those things, because they're, they're at their at their most insidious, they're invisible. So when people are, when games are really designed to be habit forming, you don't notice that they are, you don't notice that, you know, I just started playing Candy Crush, sort of, as an experiment a few days ago. And it's amazing how many of these things they've baked into the game I'm currently in, it puts you into two or three different competitions with other users. And then they're giving you rewards. And then if you play every single day, then you get more points, you get different points if you do it twice a day. And every time you beat a level in a row, and then you can get power ups, there's so many different things that they're using to just keep you coming back. They need that engagement. And they're really trying to use every, every method possible to do that. So the first step is just to notice what they're doing. And almost get annoyed by it. Because I know that when I have I have stopped playing games, but I just when I recognize enough of those tools that they're using. And I think that's that's really crummy. I don't want you to have to try to manipulate me like that. I don't want to have to keep coming back every day. When I don't want to I'm on vacation right now. And I'm thinking about this game. I don't like that. And so I I find that motivates people to really start that process is just to step step back, examine what they're doing and why they're doing it. And that goes back to the mindfulness. Why did I just open that An app. Why did I do this thing? Why has it been an hour? And I didn't notice that I've been scrolling on Facebook for this long. What are they doing that made it that made time so invisible for me in that moment?

You know, it's kind of reminded me of both, I think a combination of like watching the social dilemma, which I feel like, would be great. So they were kind of like those conscious raising moments for how, how those mechanisms around social media in particular. And then the advent of like, the Do Not Disturb function and realization of like, oh, like, actually didn't open Instagram for an hour, because it wasn't like, poking me with notification, I should actually just like, turn those notifications off like that. Because it's I noticing, like you said, and that kind of like annoyance a little bit of like, Wait, like, like, I was even thinking about it before, because it would just pop up with somebody like something, you know, or so. And so, for the first time in a long time,

I turn all of those off, because I just, it's hundreds of times a day. And it's so distracting. It's so intrusive. And I just don't want them to be constantly running, hey, go to Instagram, go to Instagram every, every hour or two. I'm getting a notification that it's telling me to do something that I don't want to do in that moment. So I turned it off notifications is absolutely one of the first steps.

And the beauty is that you know, you can you can modulate, right. Like, for me, it's like everything on Instagram, except for like direct messages, which is like, no contact me like that's all through but even you know, they can toggle which is, which is a nice thing about the moment we live in Ghana speaking about, about the ways that technology can actually work with or for us. Like what kind of opportunities do you see around online engagement, whether that's on the community or through gaming specifically, and how we might like actually use it for positive mental health and well being?

Yeah, the most obvious one for me, as you mentioned, is the ability to connect with other people we're connecting right now, because the internet exists, because zoom exists. And we're better off because of that, I'm able to see clients from all across Illinois, because we both have access to the internet. And so I'm able to reach people who would not otherwise have access to mental health services in their community, or, or wouldn't have supportive mental health in their services and their community. And they can access it from their bedroom if they want to. It's so much easier, plus COVID lock downs would have been unbelievably worse, if we couldn't also talk to each other online. During that time. Online gaming was really crucial for me, in staying connected with my friends, and I'm sitting alone in my apartment, doing nothing every day. But I get to play Jackbox games with a group of college friends, every couple of nights that helped keep me hold in that time.

It's interesting, I think it's so many different communities are starting to realize like how those technologies and those connections that have always had that have existed for a long time could become so so important, so useful in such a like a meaningful way of connection, right? Like, like the kind of like the nerds were doing it like, you know, a long time ago, and now it's catching up and oh, wait, like, you know, you can you can really seek out like people who are just like you, right? People who have shared people who people have a shared identity, or even to create relationships with mentorship and support and advice and connection. In a way that's really powerful. I it's, you know, it really amazes me to see, you know, these moments, I think I you know, a vignette I always remember was that first it was actually Passover is that first Passover, during lockdown. You know, all of a sudden, all these things that were in person went online. And somebody logged in a little bit early for Passover event as doing and they said that they were like a Jew living in, I think was like rural Wyoming. And they're like, I haven't been a Jewish thing for like 10 years. And they're like, I get to do a Jewish thing now like, that's cool. Yeah. Amazing. You know, that kind of opportunity. Do you? Do you feel like I just curious, do you feel like gaming can even be brought into, like your practice of like supporting people's mental health? I don't know if there's any, like new or exciting technologies that are emerging right now that you've seen or even ideas that you dream about? Oh, yeah,

I mean, you can see, right there is an Xbox and a switch plugged into a TV on the wall. I play with a lot of my clients for a few different reasons. I find that it helps build rapport very quickly, especially with young people who are reluctant to go into therapy or to talk to some new adult that they're supposed to be able to talk to, but they'd never it just helps for Like the ice, it helps. It's easier to talk with somebody while you're sharing an activity. If I'm playing Mario Kart with somebody, then I can just ask casually how's school going? And it sounds more casual than I mean than I actually am. Because I'm really assessing how is their school behavior? How is their, you know, how, what is their social life like, but we're just playing Mario Kart, and I'm just asking, you know, what are your friends up to a lot safer that way. I also use it as a kind of intentional intervention, where some parents will tell me that their kids are pitching a fit, throwing things while they're gaming, they broken a keyboard or two, the most efficient way for me to help those kids is just to practice being frustrated in a video game, during a therapy session. And so if they really like Mario Kart, for example, that's when I play a lot. That's a game that's really frustrating. That's a game where you can be in first place, and you can even get hit with a blue shell, and you get sent back to eighth place. And then you have to deal with that. And so while I'm playing with them, I'm watching their body language, I'm helping them notice when they have started to get when they started to get angry. You know, did you did you notice that your hands are really tense right now, you notice your body language just shifted, I think you're getting angry. Let's pause the game, do those breathing exercises we talked about, help cool yourself down. And then let's keep going. And do that over and over and over again. And it works very quickly to help rewire the brain into being a better loser, helping calm yourself down much faster. And it just it just works as an intervention. So if if parents can do that with their kids, and that works, too.

I love that. I also I also am now gathering that you must be really, really good at Mario Kart that you're able to play it and also notice,

I play like four hours a week of Mario Kart.

That's phenomenal. Is there anything else that you would like to share about about your work about an idea that you feel is important for us to know?

There are some other cool games while just on the topic that are intentionally therapeutic. There's one called endeavour, which is they they did a study or two where if you play this game for 15 minutes a day for three weeks or something similar, symptoms of ADHD decreased significantly, and you're able to focus more in school and on things that you want to focus on. There's another game called Ava, I don't know if it's out yet I played a pre release thing. It's by autistic people, for autistic people to help build social skills and confidence. She goes up to people and that took a screenshot she had, she'll say to somebody, you know, she'll she'll make a mistake. And your options at the bottom or say you're sorry, but that you didn't mean it, say you're sorry, and what you're sorry for, say you're sorry, and that they should forgive you. Or say you're sorry that they feel hurt. And those are pretty subtle differences. But they mean very different things to people. So if you say the wrong thing, if you say you should forgive me, then the character goes, Well, that didn't feel good. And she was shoot, I should really rethink that. I'll bet this is what went wrong with interaction. So you while playing this fun game, you're practicing all these really subtle social skills, which is very cool. I've even heard virtual reality games being used as exposure therapy. I know people who I know someone who is a therapist who will have the person go put on a virtual reality headset, and it looks and sounds like you're in a crowded room of people. And your goal of a therapy space is just to walk up to somebody and start a conversation. And it's scary, because it feels like you're in a real room. But it's safe. Because you're actually in the therapy space, you're actually just with your therapist, the therapist is the one who's actually talking to you when you go up to a stranger. But it's really good practice. So there's a lot of developing technologies that are being used very creatively, to help with different things. It's

really amazing. That's amazing to hear. Well, I really appreciate you spending some time with us this evening and for bringing the passion and the care you bring to your work to the space as well. And I I'm excited to see how this continues to progress into the future, how these technologies continue to develop and how we continue to utilize this technology for the best right for bringing us together for exploring who we are and for connecting like we've done tonight. So thank you again, Andrew. Thank you very much.

Shabbat replay is a production of Mishcon Chicago, our theme music was composed and performed by Calvin Strauss, you can always see where and when our next service will be on our calendar. There's a link in the show notes and if you appreciate it program please rate and review us on Apple podcasts I know you've heard it before but it really does help on behalf of T Mishcon Thank you for listening